When you put things to paper, it is said that you remember them better, especially if you’re a visual person. From a therapeutic standpoint, this allows you to see things better—even emotions or words that can sometimes be hard to grasp. Samantha Postman finds drawing and photography as some kind of therapy for herself. Still with Dr. Ayomide Adebayo, they pick up from where they left off in this third part of their special series by discussing how drawing and photography allow us to process things better from seeing them in a different light. What is more, they also talk about how we magnify the very people who have contributed to who we have become. Join Samantha and Dr. Adebayo as they take us through their thoughts and wisdom on life and expressing it in ways that are natural to who we are.

Show Notes:
03:47 – Being a Boat Rocker
06:06 – Pre-programmed to Marry and Procreate
09:18 – On Tech, Drawing, and Photography as Therapy, and Culture and Heritage of Language
35:16 – It’s Always a Community
38:10 – Why You Need to be Direct
46:50 – Show Conclusion

⬅️ Part 1: Conversations About Culture, the #MeTooMovement and Diversity With Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

⬅️ Part 2: Being a Well-Rounded Person, Cultural Metaphors, and Relationships With Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here:

Drawing and Photography as Therapy With Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

Samantha: We’re in our third part of the conversation with Dr. Ayomide Adebayo, a psychiatrist friend of mine from Scotland, who’s originally from Nigeria. On this episode, we talk about the power of metaphors, dance as a culture differentiator. We talked about the cryptics of language, and then we go into different versions of you and healthy relationships. After that, we dropped into talking about tech, the power of drawing, and photography as a therapy, as well as culture and the heritage of language. Tune in now because we dropped some knowledge bombs that I think you’re going to enjoy.

Samantha: Because of their biblical background, you will catch this one. When the Pharisees go and call Jesus out, it’s only because they don’t think he should be in a superior position. They are complimenting Him in a lot of ways. You would never call someone out that you don’t think is even equal to you because he doesn’t serve you. If someone is genuinely superior, if you call them out and you fail, you put yourself down an extra level. You are not going to do that. You are only going to call someone out that you think you are going to gain a level on and you got to be close. They are complimenting Jesus when they’re doing this by calling Him out and saying, “We think You are as equal and we don’t think You are superior.” That tension that goes on there reminds me of that.

Dr. Ayomide: Relationships are weird. We have this saying, “The greater the potential for good. The worse the potential for evil.” A mad man is worse than a mad dog. Not mentally mad, someone who is morally disruptive and chaotic can do a lot more damage because he has a lot more potential for good. Sometimes when things are messed up, I often think to myself that is because there is so much potential here. It goes both ways.

“The greater the potential for good, the worse the potential for evil. @DocAyomide @SamanthaPostman” Click To Tweet “A mad man is worse than a mad dog. @DocAyomide @SamanthaPostman” Click To Tweet

Being a Boat Rocker

Samantha: An extreme is magnification. If it can be magnified in evil, then it makes sense that it can be magnified for good as well. That reminds me of something I used to see. When I was in Ecuador, there are lots of ministry bases. We used to see people leave and come into Christianity. After a while, they became boat-rockers.

Dr. Ayomide: Boat-rockers have been in the Christian community or within the community that they were in before.

Samantha: They all come into Christianity. They are super excited. Once they have been there for a little while, they often become boat-rockers. There is resentment against them. One time, I said to the ministry leaders, “Their personality that was willing to leave the current situation they were in, their culture or their family, they are naturally a boat-rocker.” If they were boat-rockers, they wouldn’t have come on. They wouldn’t have left that situation.

You are saying don’t conform to this world, but then when they come in the church, you are like, “You need to conform.” I’m like, “I don’t think you understand this. They are a nonconformist. That is what made them willing to do this. You need to embrace the fact that they are willing to be nonconformists.” What you probably want to do is when you are looking at people to invest in, you probably want to invest in nonconformists. They are going to be the hardest. If somebody tows the party line, they are not going to leave it. They are not going to nonconform. I’m oversimplifying because we know the spirit has the power too.

Dr. Ayomide: I get what you are saying. People want creative people on their team. It’s like, “What do you think was going to happen?” You got to have one of them. You have all of them, good and bad.

Samantha: We end up trying to conform because we don’t know how to handle it.

Dr. Ayomide: Sometimes you succeed and break them.

Pre-programmed to Marry and Procreate

Samantha: The thing you needed and sought out is the thing you end up crushing in them. We do this in the marriage too. We say the things that we love about someone are the things we hate about them, “I’m drawn to this person because of this and this.” It also becomes the Achilles heel, the thing we try to crush out of them because it drives us crazy as well. Humans are humans. It’s a lot of the same underlining behavior that manifests in different ways depending on the situation. I’m a bit of a boat-rocker. My husband sometimes says, “Do you always have to rock the boat?” He is not a boat-rocker. The funny thing is that sometimes I don’t even know I’m doing it. I’m oblivious to the fact that this is bothering people. I also grew up mostly with a single mom. My mom raised us countercultural but didn’t know that. It was normal within our house to speak our minds. My mom was a male and a female. She fixed bikes and cars, took the trash out, took care of finances but also do the mom things.

Dr. Ayomide: It all depends.

Samantha: This whole thing of genders having certain roles was not something that played in. Sometimes, I cross these lines. I will come back to my husband now. Anytime he is like, “Do you always have to be a boat-rocker?” I will be like, “You married outside your culture. I feel like you are a boat-rocker with me.” It doesn’t change the fact that he is not happy about it. I did tell you I wanted to be a lawyer in another lifetime. The poor guy has no chance to win with me.

Dr. Ayomide: Be glad about what you have.

Samantha: That guy has his hands full with me sometimes.

Dr. Ayomide: I have a friend who once said one of the most beautiful things I have heard someone say about their spouse. She was complaining about her husband and then she said, “He does have to put up with me so he gets a pass.” That is a lovingly realistic way to put it.

Samantha: I know I’m a lot of work. What I dislike is when other men in front of me will walk up to my husband and say, “Your wife must be a lot of work.” I’m always like, “I seriously can’t believe he said that in front of me.” It’s true. They are doing the whole brotherhood I-feel-sorry-for-you thing. It’s insulting.

Dr. Ayomide: You could do the sisterhood thing too.

Samantha: I’m like, “Am I supposed to be at home pregnant and barefoot and keep saying nothing? What did you say there?”

Dr. Ayomide: If you don’t want work, don’t get married.

Samantha: I was telling you that I mentor a lot of young adults and then they have other things. It breaks my heart. A lot of them don’t want to be single. They desire to be married. Also, we are pre-programmed to procreate. That is something we have to work through and that may never happen for them and what does that look like. Some are good with it and others aren’t. When a choice is taken from you and when it’s not your choice not to have children because if you don’t marry and you don’t find that partner, that’s way harder.

Dr. Ayomide: There is grieving that has to happen there.

Samantha: It can re-grieve. It could be when they are 90 and they re-grieve it again. We need to be more sensitive for people who are going through that in this culture. It’s something that older people do not understand because it wasn’t something they dealt with.

Dr. Ayomide: That is true. It doesn’t help that we idolized marriage a little bit. I got lots of friends who are older and single and who don’t get married and they wanted to. There are people who don’t care and that is fine. It’s harder for people who wanted to, but somehow haven’t found anyone to partner with. The older you get, the more you have to face the possibility that you might not. I suppose it depends where you are. I feel like there is a lot of things that are culturally a bit more difficult. One of them is loneliness, being aware of people like that and being deliberate in connecting with them. Friendship always matters. It matters even more for someone who wants to be partnered but isn’t.

Samantha: That is a whole other conversation, listening to many single people. They are not all the ones that didn’t get married. There are some that are married and then it didn’t work out. That is a thing that gets heavy on me. My heart breaks for that. We covered a lot of ground.

Dr. Ayomide: We did.

On Tech, Drawing, and Photography as Therapy, and Culture and Heritage of Language

Samantha: Is your head going to explode with all of the directions we went?

Dr. Ayomide: I have taken down a few notes because I was like, “I know me. I’m not going to remember everything. That is something we could knock on.” I know you said you are going to share the video.

Samantha: You’ve said some things that are going to be circling around for a while.

Dr. Ayomide: There are lots to think about. That talking-to-themselves thing that you said at the start is something we need to be thinking about a lot.

Samantha: It’s helped me less verbalize sometimes when I’m upset with somebody to not talk anymore. Before I felt more obligated to discuss it and get it out.

Dr. Ayomide: You and I are talkers and that is the danger that we have all the time.

Samantha: Since I have come to this epiphany about talking to myself, I find that I don’t need to do it as much now. I can keep it inside my head. I have an iPad Pro. It’s my favorite tech because you can sit on the couch and write.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s my most used computer.

Samantha: My husband told me that I was having an affair with my Apple products.

Dr. Ayomide: I have an iPad and Pencil. It’s great to take notes. I have got this app called Nimble. I don’t know if you know it.

Samantha: I’ve heard of it.

Dr. Ayomide: It turns notes into text as you write. It’s difficult taking notes when you are talking to patients. There is something about using a computer when you are talking to a patient that I don’t like. It doesn’t feel right. People do it and I do it in a pinch but I don’t like it. Using an iPad is like writing in a notebook, but I don’t have to write twice with Nimble. Before, I would have to write in a notebook and then transcribe it on a computer. I write in Nimble. I send it to the computer and it’s all done.

Samantha: I’m going to retry it again. I haven’t tried it since one of its beta stages. I forgot about it. That is how I process it now. I will go sit out in the sun for a bit and then start processing my thoughts out or drawing them out. I’m super frustrated with someone that I thought was sweeping some stuff under the carpet that shouldn’t be doing that. I got this picture in my mind and I was like, “Wait a minute.” I drew it instead of talking to them about it. I’ve learned that with some people, especially the older they get. It’s unproductive. It’s not going to do anything. It agitates them. You think that you got through them and then the next time, they act the same anyway.

I went on my tablet and I drew two people with a carpet. I drew all this debris under. My second picture was of two people with this carpet with a big mountain and you couldn’t see each other anymore because there is so much stuff that had been swept under the carpet from your relationship. You were no longer connecting anymore. You couldn’t even see past all the debris. For me, that is all I needed. I didn’t need to say it to the person. I drew it out.

Dr. Ayomide: Do you know this thing people say about writing letters and then burning them off? That is what this sounds like.

Samantha: I had a therapist who did that with me once. I was like, “What did I write in there? I want to look at that again.” I was obsessed with it. I have got mental problems. You probably would have thrown me into your office and help me.

Dr. Ayomide: We all do.

Samantha: This whole talking to yourself, I realized that we don’t always have to talk in somebody else’s presence. I’m more conscious, “Am I talking to this person about this issue because it’s in the best interest of our relationship? Am I doing it because I feel the need to talk it out?” It works when people are doing it.

Dr. Ayomide: I like it a lot.

Samantha: When other people are doing it to you, not everybody is necessarily going to be that self-aware. Let them do it without letting it stick to you. It’s like being that one-sided tape that I was talking about. I teach this little method to young adults. When I’m mentoring adults, I talk to them a lot about this, especially if they say, “So and so said something to me.” I’ll tell them, “A good portion of that was them talking out loud to themselves.” They are like, “You are right. They had this going on and that going on.”

You are the first or the safest person that they came across after they had something happened to them. It’s the same thing we do to everyone else. We boil over. It’s like we are a paint can, and then we are shaking up all over the place and the paint starts spilling all over everyone. They got to clean the paint off themselves. It’s like, “I can’t get the stain out.” Now I’m trying to be a little bit more conscious when my paint can start to get a little agitated and that I don’t let it fly everywhere.

Dr. Ayomide: Do you follow Craig Burgess’s Daily Visual on Twitter?

Samantha: No.

Dr. Ayomide: He does this thing called Daily Visual. I said that because you said you like to draw. I thought you would like it. He puts out a prompt for you to draw something. I saw one that he did and that was to visualize the word secure but without using the obvious imagery. This is my interest because it’s more about you. I thought it was cool. I’m not into drawing, but it’s something I want to get better at because I used to when I was a kid and then I stopped. The challenge was to visualize the word secure without using the obvious like padlocks on safes. I checked some of the replies and someone drew a teddy bear. I thought that might be something you might fancy if you like to draw. It might appeal to your creative side as well.

Samantha: I see value in that. I like to draw when I feel inspired to work on something that’s gnawing at me. When I teach, I draw stick people. A 3 or 4-year-old could probably draw a better stick person than me.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s fine. The Daily Visual is not about the quality of the drawing. It’s about the fun.

Samantha: I’m surprised you don’t do more of that with your patients.

Dr. Ayomide: More on my drawing or play, which do you mean?

Samantha: You probably do use drawing as part of it. I find that we use drawing for children a lot but not as much as adults.

Dr. Ayomide: Those are things that the nurses would do. You don’t get hammered that much time on a ward.

Samantha: Can they draw something after and bring it to you after they have processed it?

Dr. Ayomide: Yes.

Samantha: I find it therapeutic. I didn’t draw a lot before I did my Master’s. I was still coming out of my illness. It was a prompting thing to do. I didn’t do it for work purposes. It was hard the first six months because I had not used my brain for such a long period of time being sick. It’s like when you are in a wheelchair and you can’t walk because you have to rebuild those muscles again, I had this seminary-type language. It’s upper academic. I had read the same page ten times sometimes. That was my climb out of my illness, building my brain backup. Physically, I can’t lift anything heavy. I couldn’t walk very much at the time. I was not able to do a lot. I slowly built my brain back up.

It was a two-year program straight through. About the eighteen-month mark, I started to see the world in a whole new dimension. It was like a whole ton of doors opened up everywhere in my mind. It was like I had access to rooms with tons of libraries that I didn’t have before. I used to be a professional photographer for a while so I can visualize things like standing in different directions and different lights. This was different. I then started drawing. I never drew before, except in elementary when they forced you to. All of a sudden, I kept drawing pictures and images. I never stopped. Now I use it therapeutically to process information.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s good.

Samantha: I was stuck writing an essay. It was overwhelming so I switched mediums. I drew it out by hand first and then went on Crello and did it. It was helpful for me to switch mediums.

Dr. Ayomide: Your drawing can’t be that bad as you are making it sound if we draw that much. You got to know the first problem of drawing, which is thinking you can’t draw.

“The first problem of drawing is thinking you can't draw. @DocAyomide @SamanthaPostman” Click To Tweet

Samantha: I will pull something up for you. I used to go on Google Keep originally because it was the easiest thing I could do with my pen. I had a Samsung Note 9 for a while and I loved it, but then I found it’s such a pain not to have everything on the same platform. I gave it up but I miss it.

Dr. Ayomide: Was it because it was smaller?

Why You Need to be Direct

Samantha: I had a phone and I could draw something out. For me, it was processing. Here, I’m processing language. German and Dutch are direct languages. I’m looking at other languages like Italian or Spanish that are flowery. Here’s me drawing out the differences. I’m showing direct language, Point A to B.

Dr. Ayomide: I like this. This is the whole point. Do you draw in Apple Notes?

Samantha: That one was in Google but I do it in Notability.

Dr. Ayomide: That doesn’t look like Notability. I know it doesn’t look like Notability because I use the dotted paper.

Samantha: You can turn the drawing paper off. Here, I show English. There is a flower here and we go around the bush. The language is a journey. To me, Italian is like a journey. One is faster than the other. This journey is longer and it listens to all of this.

Dr. Ayomide: One is also more interesting.

Samantha: It depends on your purpose. The culture of people is quite dependent on their language. One of the first things I do when I meet people is I’ll ask them where is their heritage, where’s their ancestry from. In Canada, it’s always like the last stamp, “I’m Canadian.” I’m like, “Give me a break.” What I like about African-Americans is at least they’re going to say they originally came from Africa. In Canada, you would say, “I’m never African-Canadian.” No one would ever say that.

Dr. Ayomide: Have you read the Cultural Man?

Samantha: I have read it. Both of us would get all giddy about a book like that. I will meet someone and I will be like, “What is your heritage?” It helps me a lot. A friend of mine was super frustrated because everyone kept telling her how direct she is and they are like, “You are too direct. You are too blunt.” She would hide that she is a single woman. Relationships, in general, were becoming difficult for her. She was feeling lonely. I’m like, “Let me guess, your mom’s German?” She is like, “How did you know that?” I was like, “Because you are a direct speaker.” I’m a direct speaker. Usually, females are more influenced by their mother’s language. Even though her mother didn’t speak German herself, they had been in the country for 100 years, you are still going to use English in a way the previous culture would use it.

We are going to take out all those modal verbs and extra soft words you and I were talking about, “You may want to think about this.” Germans don’t talk like that, “Do this and do that.” What I said to her was, “You have this German background and you don’t even know about it. It’s influencing the way you talk to people. I get that you’re American but you’re German-American in many ways even though your family’s been here for 100 years.” This is what I do, I put a disclaimer at the front and a disclaimer at the end. When I got to put in all those extra, soft, flowery words, I’m exhausted and I can’t mentally function. I will say something like, “I have some suggestions for you. I’m going to say them probably directly but they’re all suggestions and it’s up to you what you want to do with them.” I speak directly. In the end, I say, “These are suggestions in my humble opinion. It’s up to you what you want to do with them.”

Dr. Ayomide: They are like, “I’m going to botch everything.”

Samantha: It works. I can speak flowery with people if they need it. If somebody is hurting, it’s probably what you would do. If someone is hurting, I will come down to that and talk softly, carefully, gently and generously. It reminded me of that. I drew that out. She and I had this conversation and that is exactly why I drew this out. We were talking about her obstacles because of the way she is speaking the language. I was like, “What does this mean for different kinds of languages? Where do we come from?” I went to my iPad and drew it out.

Dr. Ayomide: I like it. Thanks for that. That is something I want to do more of. I’m always thinking of things that I want to draw. There are two things. One, I’m not visual in how I think but I know that there is something there. If I drew more, I would explore it. If I started to draw more, it would fit itself. This is a reminder to just do it.

Samantha: It’s sitting on my iPad. I can take it if I want. It served me well. Something I would recommend is maybe trying some photography. It’s something that everyone should try now that everybody has one on the phone. You will learn to see things from multiple dimensions. I’m going to be assertive here. I would recommend that all of your patients take up photography because what it will do is teach them to see things from more perspectives than their own. For females, it’s a flower. There are different subjects that people might want to photograph. When I stand in front of a flower, I get a shadow because the light is behind me. There is a shadow on the flower. All of a sudden, because of where I’m standing, the flower is in a shadow. If I shift my position over to the other side of the light, all of a sudden, there is no shadow on the flower.

I live by the Rocky Mountains. I will take a macro photograph of a wildflower and then all of a sudden, they go on my computer and there’s the coolest spider that I didn’t even see. It’s magnified but I was focused on the petals that I didn’t notice this cool spider. My brain has started to go, “I focused on something and miss something else.” The perspectives that you learn and the way you train your brain to shift a situation, shift the weight where you are in a room, shift your perspective, shift other people’s perspective. It is built when you take on photography. The other thing is you start to take something and try to put it in its best light. I’m going to try to take a picture of a flower in its best light or the way it’s going to look the best.

Mariposa Lily and Crab Spider @Samantha Postman Lynx Creek, Alerta Canada

Dr. Ayomide: You need to write about this stuff.

Samantha: Now it’s going to be my blog. Here is the other part of the photography thing I want to share with you. I know we’ve been going on for a long time but this is important for your patients. Otherwise, I wouldn’t go on. I recommend photography as therapeutic for this reason because when you’re focused on taking a picture of something, you are looking at the lighting, the focus and where it is. You have blinders on to whatever is right in front of you. You are trying to make it in the best light.

What naturally happens is everything else in your life goes quiet because you are narrowly focused on this object, thing or something that is in front of you, which has no personality and no emotional reaction to you. You are focused that your brain rests. You are not going to be thinking about whatever is going on at home or what happened with your wife, your mom or your dad. It’s completely gone. You are focused. It’s almost like a form of meditation in many ways and you push everything out.

I was part of a photography club for a long time. We used to go on what we called field trips. This one guy had the stupidest headache when he came. He was barely functioning. Ten minutes in, his headache was completely 100% gone. He’s like, “Samantha, my headache is gone.” I was like, “That is because you pushed everything out. All the noise in your life was gone.” He was present and focused on whatever it is he was trying to make look beautiful in front of him. For me, when I’m mentally overloaded, if I pick up my camera for 10 to 15 minutes, the peace I feel is unbelievable. It’s amazing. It’s therapeutic. Anyone can do it now.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s getting out of yourself and getting out of your own head.

Samantha: Part of the reason why I know this is because I live in the Rocky Mountains. I went up to do this wildflower festival where we have these top photographers come in and you can take a walk up in the mountains. They will bring you to places and take pictures. With photographers, we always have to have someone in the rear and someone in the front. When photographers are taking pictures, they don’t hear bears. We are focused on taking the pictures that we don’t hear if a bear would come up behind us.

Dr. Ayomide: You shut out everything else.

Samantha: You shut everything out and focus. We have to have spotters. There are not a ton of times where bears are going to come, but you are quiet. As a photographer, I’m quiet so the bear wouldn’t even hear me. You are quiet, in tune, focused and shut everything out that you would not even hear a bear. We had to have spotters to make sure that no bears were coming up when we are in these group settings. That is part of what tuned me into being like, “This is good for your soul.” It’s good for your brain to reset, be quiet and turn everything else off.

Dr. Ayomide: It is good. This thing you are saying is low-key and useful. For instance, something as simple as turning your camera off makes such a difference because it’s bringing you back into that self-consciousness that you don’t necessarily need.

Samantha: It’s a lot of extra work for your mind.

Dr. Ayomide: Taking that off the table changes so much.

Samantha: We have talked about so much. This was fun. I feel like the heat is coming out of my brain. I’m sweating and hot. I always ask people, what is one thing that you were like, “That is something I want to think more about?” You said that we are talking to ourselves a lot. Is that what you would say?

Dr. Ayomide: There are a bunch of things. It’s talking to myself. I like all of the different ways you talked about it. That is something I want to think about. The dancing thing, I don’t think I have talked about that much with you. Seeing how you resonated with it makes me think that maybe I should think about that a bit more as well and formalize it. The dancing thing, the way I think about it is I articulate to myself which my essays are.

Samantha: I’d make a good essay about how human interaction is a dance. I’m a little nervous about doing the show because I’m out of practice with my dance, with party talking to anyone over COVID. I was talking about my paper to the Federal Finance Committee that I spent hundreds of hours on. I couldn’t even think of the name of the title because I’m out of practice. You have to re-practice to get yourself back in that dance with talking with people and articulating in a certain way. It would be interesting to see when people come out of COVID that are trying to struggle and figure out how to talk with people again.

Dr. Ayomide: I love a lot of what you said about your tax work. I feel like I will never think about that the same way again. That was interesting to hear the humaneness of it.

Samantha: They brought me to Ecuador and the main reason was to do their inventory. If there was an earthquake or some natural disaster, everything that the ministry owned would be logged for insurance purposes because they knew I had an accounting background. I sent them my resume. It had way more than a tax accountant on it. When I left, they were giving me feedback. My supervisor said to me, “In the future, you should leave off the fact that you are a tax accountant. Don’t put that on your resume.” She goes, “You were nothing like what we expected when you came off the plane. Our whole team was blown away. You were nothing like we think you to be. We thought you were like some big town accountant or something.”

Dr. Ayomide: They are like, “This person likes to get into it.” It ends up doing group therapy. I fear that I will meet other tax people who are not going to live up to this.

Samantha: In my experience, I’m talking about the few that I know. Tax specialists who are females were these excitable, hyper-active mental people. I know quite a few people in the accounting industry because I know people who think like me and stuff. I would say that, in general, even women accountants wouldn’t act like me. A tax specialist got this weird energy to us. We are like this, but most people would never know that there is a difference. Maybe it’s the ones I know. I loved what I did.

Dr. Ayomide: That shows up completely.

Samantha: I miss it. I had to close my practice because I got so sick. Mentally, I had so much brain fog. Doing taxes requires an intellectual intensity that people don’t even understand. Five hours of doing that would be hours and hours of physical labor. You got to be on your game. There is so much data and many things you are keeping track of. I didn’t feel like I could do a service and I was too sick. They’re like you. Everything we do builds us up for what’s next. Our conversation will build us up for what’s next.

Dr. Ayomide: The fact that we have time in the world. We need a time zone because we are not moving faster. The planet was, which is hilarious. It’s like, “Who the funk?”

Samantha: It’s disruptive in many ways. It’s beautiful that because of the internet, we could connect with someone quickly at 6:00 AM or 7:00 PM. I’m talking to someone and they are getting up in the morning.

Dr. Ayomide: I have been on courses and a lot of courses are American, and that is pretty for someone that lives in Europe or Asia. Imagine what they go through. They are doing the course at what they think is a good time. It’s a good time for them but for you, it’s midnight.

Samantha: We even had one guy in Roam Research from Poland. He would come in at 3:00 AM sometimes. He would stay for 30 minutes and be like, “I tried. I can’t stay on.”

Dr. Ayomide: Europe time works for everyone. There is nothing you can do. Most of the people will be from the US. It makes sense.

Samantha: Even here, it works like that. When we were doing Roam Research, that was over my lunchtime. That is for my family. That is not ideal. Even 1 or 2 hours can be the difference between missing a family meal or not. Even though I’m not across the country, that can still happen between one shift to the time zone.

Dr. Ayomide: It is tricky.

Samantha: I love the opportunity that we have through the internet. We get to meet cool people like you and build each other up. I’m looking forward to reading your essay and seeing what comes out of it next.

Dr. Ayomide: I will tag you.

Samantha: Refer me, “I was talking to Samantha.” I would love that. Someone tagged me and said, “I read this essay from somebody yesterday and I want to jump off of it and add this.” They didn’t tag me in it. Maybe they were doing it to be polite but I was like, “Maybe more people want to join that conversation.” Sometimes when we tag each other, someone might see you tagged and be like, “Samantha’s tagged in that. I’m interested in what she talks about. I’m going to talk with this doctor all the way in Scotland.”

Dr. Ayomide: You would have to tell me not to tag you for me to not tag you. I’m tagging by default.

Samantha: Put it in your essay too. What she did is tagged me in the intro but not in the essay. She said, “I read this essay.” She didn’t say whose it was. If the essay gets detached from the introduction, which could easily happen, there is no way to reconnect it to the previous conversation, which stirred her essay.

Dr. Ayomide: I learned that from James. He was the first person I know who was attributing conversations and I thought that is cool.

Samantha: I love doing that. I invite people back into the conversation and add to it. That is how we learn.

Dr. Ayomide: As a reminder, I’m part of a community. I come up with ideas but I come up with them in conversations. It wasn’t tagging like, “I read this reference and it was a conversation with sociopathy.”

Samantha: Even Martin Luther, people are like, “Martin Luther said this. Martin Luther said that. He came up with this.” I don’t think they realize that back then, those guys used to send letters to each other. They would be like, “I have been thinking about this.” Erasmus was huge. The Mennonite community was built off of Erasmus’ thoughts. Erasmus says something and then another scholar says something. These letters would circle around. The last one who’s vocal gets all the credit. They are like, “Martin Luther said this.” He was influenced by 3 or 4 other great thinkers. Together, they came up with this. He added this. I missed out on that. I wish that Martin Luther would have done a tag back.

It’s Always a Community

Dr. Ayomide: It’s the great man syndrome.

Samantha: I don’t know that he was necessarily trained to do that.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s not him. We are always looking for that one person when it’s always a community.

Samantha: When people say, “How do you know all that stuff?” Every person is an accumulation of everything and everyone who has been in their life.

“You are the accumulation of everyone who has been in your life. @SamanthaPostman” Click To Tweet

Dr. Ayomide: That is a great thing.

Samantha: I am an accumulation of everyone who has been in my life.

Dr. Ayomide: You should tweet that. I love it.

Samantha: I’m like, “That is why I have multiple personality disorder.” I’m making light of it. I shouldn’t probably make light of it. Maybe it’s not funny to some people. The idea is that we are of magnification. We magnify all those who have contributed to us. We put our twist on it and it becomes unique. I hope we get another opportunity to talk again sometime.

Drawing And Photography: We are of magnification. We magnify all those who have contributed to us. We put our twist on it. and it becomes unique.

Dr. Ayomide: I’m sure we will.

Samantha: We covered a lot. It was fun. I had a lot of fun.

Dr. Ayomide: It’s good. Thank you for this.

Samantha: I wonder what community will be next by accident. I need a break though because I’m getting a little overloaded with everything going on my side.

Dr. Ayomide: There is a course that I should have joined. I was like, “I’m going to take a pass on this one. Sorry.”

Samantha: I’m probably going to take a pass on Ship 30 for 30. I probably will continue to write essays but not every day.

Dr. Ayomide: I’m not even joining the next room that will pull up either. I’m taking a pause on everything apart from Ship 30 for 30, at which point I will pause on everything else.

Samantha: I haven’t even processed everything I learned from Roam Research. The digital Zettelkasten, I haven’t even had time to practice it because I went straight to the essays.

Dr. Ayomide: Beau is such a genius.

Samantha: I love Beau Haan. He is the guy when it comes to digital Zettelkasten. He is amazing.

Dr. Ayomide: His passion and his energy.

Samantha: Some people inspire you by their presence and he is one of them. I love how real he is. He puts himself out there for who he is.

Dr. Ayomide: Beau is going to be beau. I love him. He is a great guy.

Samantha: I learned a lot from him, for sure. He is humble in important ways.

Dr. Ayomide: I love that you said that because there is the confidence that he has. If someone said he was arrogant, I would disagree. It’s the confidence that is going to help you. I’m not going to pretend that I don’t think so because I do. I might be wrong.

Samantha: He is humble in the right ways and that is what makes him magical. That combination is magical. It’s something I aspire to be. He inspired me to checkpoint where to be humble in the right places. That is something I took away from him.

Dr. Ayomide: Even his directness to me is in the form of humility. He is that direct because he is trying to be helpful. He is convinced that this may help you. It’s not because of him.

Samantha: You have that in your practice. Sometimes, you need to be direct with the patient because you care. I have to remember that sometimes when someone is overly direct with me, it’s a risk for someone to be direct with you because they know there can be backlash. When they do it anyway, I overly respect that. I need to checkpoint my ego and my hurt and be like, “That person complimented me by being that direct with me. They felt I was worth it that much to be that direct with me.” I checkpoint myself and listen to what they have to say.

BP 7 | Drawing And Photography
Drawing And Photography: Sometimes, you need to be direct with the patient because you care.

Dr. Ayomide: That is such a good way to put it. There are people who are direct because they don’t care.

Samantha: You can usually tell.

Dr. Ayomide: They are direct because it’s like, “I love you too much to hold this back.” I have a friend I joke with and I tell her that she has unsolicited advice.

Samantha: My son always starts a conversation with, “I’m not going to lie but.” He then burst out whatever honest thing he wants to say. No one is even on that subject. He wants to bring it up and that’s how he starts it, unsolicited comments and directness.

Dr. Ayomide: I can’t imagine what our friendship would be without her unsolicited advice. That is the truth.

Samantha: I like those friendships where we are direct with each other and honest. It’s vulnerable to be direct. People don’t think it is. They think it’s rude and obnoxious. It’s vulnerable to be direct because we get called out a lot. It’s safe to be indirect.

Dr. Ayomide: I’ve done the same for her. It’s like, “This may hurt our friendship but I love you too much.” It’s almost like, “I love you too much to prioritize how I feel about our friendship over potential harm coming to you.” When I say, “I don’t want to hurt the friendship,” what I’m saying is it’s about me. I’m not going to watch you fall off a cliff because I don’t want to protect you. I will care about you if I do that.

Samantha: It’s not easy for everyone. It’s not always easy to hear. They call it EQ, Emotional Quotient.

Dr. Ayomide: Sometimes you are wrong. Because of our friendship, you know that. You don’t have to accept what I’m saying. It’s like, “Let’s not be sad that I didn’t see.”

Samantha: You are reminding me of something that I have learned. Someone called me out about something that bothered them and I was in a vulnerable place already. I was upset about a previous conversation that I had with somebody else and they didn’t know about it. They started telling him to me and then I was like, “I want you to say this to me, but I’m not in a place to hear it right now.” I had to learn sometimes how to say that and then not also be as offended if someone didn’t know that I was in a vulnerable place. I don’t try to overreact to them. I have had to learn that.

Sometimes when I have something vulnerable to say to somebody or something direct, I will ask them a little bit about their day and get a temperature test before I do it. Something else I try to do is to only talk about one thing. Don’t go and bring up the last several years of things that you were waiting to talk about because you got the courage to be direct now. It’s one thing. I find that most humans can only handle one direct thing at a time.

Dr. Ayomide: That is something I have learned the hard way.

Samantha: When I was mentoring young adults, we are trying to teach people about blind spots. We encourage them to go out and ask someone they trust to tell them what their blind spots were. A week later, they came back and we said, “How did this go?” I wasn’t the one who initiated this because I would have done it a little bit differently. They went to their friend and said, “Tell me my blind spots.” What I said happened. All of a sudden, five years’ worth of stuff came out. That was way too much. The next group that came in, I said, “We are going to learn about blind spots. Ask someone you trust to give you one thing that you could work on or that they think you have a blind spot for and then hold them to that one thing.” That worked out a million times better than opening the floodgates for anything that someone can say to you. That is where I learned the lesson that we can handle one thing if we are in the right place. You have to wait to bring up anything else if you even get that opportunity.

“We can handle one thing if we're in the right place. @SamanthaPostman” Click To Tweet

Dr. Ayomide: That is a good way to put it.

Samantha: In marriage, I have to remember that too. It’s like, “You did this and this.” I then talk about the ten things I didn’t say anything about to add more gravity and it’s not helpful. I don’t know if it’s a 40 thing, but we learn all these little tricks through clients and experiences. It’s important to put yourself out there to get experiences. I get asked a lot by young adults like, “How do you know this stuff? How can I learn this?” I’m like, “You got to put yourself out there but it’s going to hurt sometimes.” You can listen to people constantly, but if you don’t get to practice it or feel it, it’s not going to internalize positively in the way that you want it to and make a real difference. We are both getting tired because we have been exploring the whole world and solving all the world’s problems. I want to thank you. It’s been a huge pleasure and value-add to my life. Your fingerprint is going to stay on me probably forever. When we encounter people, they leave a fingerprint on us. For some, we go, “I’m glad that one is on me.” Thank you for that.

Dr. Ayomide: Thank you for having me and for this whole chat and all of the ideas. I will look through scraps because I feel like there is so much that I can’t remember now. I noted a few things down. There is a lot that I didn’t take notes on. There is a lot that I still want to go back and look at. If I go back on how I’m feeling, this was fun.

Samantha: This is what happens to me in coffee shops. I like to frequent where young adults hang out, the more hippie or more like Apple store type. I will sit down and then start chatting up with a young adult next to me. The next thing I know, it’s 7:00 and my phone is ringing. My family is like, “You didn’t make it for supper.” I’m like, “I lost track of time because I was connected to this person I was talking to.” I was present that I didn’t realize three hours went by. COVID helped me to be home for more meals. If I could get paid to do it, I frequent coffee shops and chat with people constantly.

Dr. Ayomide: Have the restrictions been lifted in Alberta or Canada as a whole?

Samantha: That is a whole other conversation. Let’s not get into that. It’s tight. It’s ridiculous. I’m not getting all political. There are many people in those conversations that they don’t need any more of them. There is hardly anything that somebody else hasn’t said that I could say. The conversations we’re having now are unique. There are no two other people on the planet who could have had a conversation uniquely like ours. No two other people would have the same conversation. That is art. People don’t understand that conversations are art. You created some magical string of words, concepts, pictures, unique combinations and blends to create something beautiful. Two artists creating art together. I love that. We created art together. It’s cool and exciting.

No two other people would have the same conversation. That’s art.
No two people can have the exact same conversations more than once. That's art. Click To Tweet

Dr. Ayomide: You hosted the art. Thank you.

Show Conclusion

Samantha: It’s a little weird. Somebody else messaged me and they’re like, “I read your Twitter and I wanted to talk to you about X.” They’re like, “Can you book a Zoom call?” I’m like, “If you are willing to do it as a podcast. It’s a little different than normal. It’s more of an ask me whatever it is that prompted you to connect with me and then we will talk about it.” It’s like what we had. My first shows were solos, which I didn’t like. It’s COVID and I didn’t know how to start but I’m loving this style more. We bring somebody on and we unpack whatever it is that brought us together and what sparked the connection. Let’s make a beautiful glowing fire out of it, a dance.

For everybody who read this, we’re glad for you. If you create something from this, an essay, maybe you draw something, tag one of us in it. Let us know that you are continuing the conversation somewhere else. Wouldn’t that be amazing if someone tags us and continues the conversation? Casey Lee asked me, “What is your idea of success?” I cheekily said, “Elon Musk is calling me and asking my opinion about something.” In all seriousness, when somebody says, “I want to continue a conversation that you guys started.” That is a success. I would love for anyone reading or watching us on YouTube to make a comment. Tell us what you think. Tell us if this helped you. Let us know. DM us and let us know that this made an impact on your life. Most of all, share it with somebody that you think that is going to benefit from it. That would make it all extra creative, extra art.

Dr. Ayomide: You don’t complete the circle of creativity until you share what you have made.

Samantha: That’s it for this show. We covered a lot of very interesting aspects about culture, dance and therapy, and took the professions of both my friend and in a way colleague because we just do psychiatry differently. I did it through taxes and he does it in a more clinical way, but both ways definitely gave us insights into human behavior as well as gave us opportunities to help build into other people. I’m so glad that he joined us and you joined us for a wonderful time to connect with thoughts and how we can look at the world in a better way. Thanks again.

Samantha: You have finished reading this episode with our amazing doctor and psychiatrist down in Scotland. We are with Dr. Ayomide. It was a real treat. We are privileged to have you on the show and contribute to our minds and our future selves. Thank you.

⬅️ Part 1: Conversations About Culture, the #MeTooMovement and Diversity With Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

⬅️ Part 2: Being a Well-Rounded Person, Cultural Metaphors, and Relationships With Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

Important Links:

About Dr. Ayomide Adebayo

BP 5 | Culture, Mentorship And DiversityI’m a Nigerian ex-pat in the UK, and I think and write about the dark side of being human, and how psychology, culture and faith shape us.

Connect with Dr. Ayomide Adebayo:
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